I've been using it extensively since the release and the best summary I can give is that it's good enough to use it for (almost) everything and cheap enough that the cost are irrelevant. I'm running it in Oh My Pi with a second instance running as "advisor" and even with 5-6 active sessions (effectively 12 streams) I'm struggling to spend more than 5 bucks per day.
OpenCode Go even has double limits temporarily so for 10 USD you effectively get 140 USD of tokens to spend. It would impress me if someone could burn that amount with "normal" usage. Even when running multiple sessions.
I have a Claude Max subscription but I've barely touched it, it just feels like a step back to have to think about limits and usage even though the models are stronger.
The beauty of intelligence at this cost (even if it's not SOTA) is that it opens a whole bunch of new use cases. Test failure in CI? Have the bot automatically propose a fix, its cheap enough that you can discard it w/h issues. Test coverage too low? Auto generate tests on CI for every pull-requests! Monitoring server logs, continuous security audits and investigating every received exception now becomes possible.
I'm thinking about having it automatically filter and re-rank my social media feeds so I can steer the algorithm instead of the other way around.
Perhaps other people (with enormous budgets) were already doing all of the above but for us this is a really exciting release!
If what you're saying is true and accurate, then US-based AI labs are in big trouble. The only saving grace might be some sort of a 'national security' proclamation banning the use of state-of-the-art Chinese (and non-US) models across US federal and state governments and large enterprises (especially ones with federal government contracts), but even still, US AI labs will probably lose out massively on international market if a smaller model can match SOTA of just a few months ago.
There's no way large companies outside the US will pay the "US AI lab" premium if they can get the same workloads done at a fraction of the cost using open-weight models that they can self-host and optimize/fine-tune on.
I think you're overlooking the fact that for long-horizon tasks, even small errors compound over time and can lead to catastrophic outcomes.
For simple queries, we have reached the threshold since the beginning of the year, and models are good enough from every provider to make a meaningful difference between one another. (ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, Grok, MuseSpark, Kimi, DeepSeek, GLM...)
The real unlock will be, and you can already see it with GPT-5.6 and Fable-5, to delegate complex enough tasks that will take more than 24 hours to get done and they will not lose track. I'm not talking about a loop, but the actual intelligence to recover from these compounding errors that accumulate in dumber models.
We're still a long way from the intelligence needed to let one of these agents go ahead and supervise multiple layers of sub-agents underneath to do complex orchestration. The future looks very promising and exciting. Imagine having the possibility of a Frontier model orchestrating as many sub-agents as needed that are running on cheaper models like DeepSeek.
These are not 24 hours of inference with floating point errors accumulating; largely the system guards against errors compounding. Tool failures, compile failures, test failures, etc, push back against the model taking a wrong turn and force it to correct.
Yes it's much easier to have a smarter model that goes straight to the correct answer first, but it may not be necessary or economical. There's a minimum bar for the model where it understands problems and knows the right step to correct them, and above that newer models give diminishing returns.
It is true. I don't care about having infinite frontier-level intelligence, and I don't care if Fable can one-shot frobnicate a klaxelzorp with a benchmark performance of 97%. I doubt most people do, in fact. I just want something that meets the baseline level of intelligence needed to be a really, really good pair programming agent. It shouldn't have any silly dealbreaker issues involving laziness or hallucinations, it should be smart enough to bounce ideas off of, and it should automate doing tedious boilerplate. And - most of all - I want to be able to afford using it as much as I want. That's what has happened here.
I wonder when we crossed the "99 percentile of intelligence for 99% of the usecases" threshold. At this point, the gains seem to be right at the very edge of bleeding edge for narrow and specialized use cases, and wonder if it'll be a sort of diminishing return from here on.
It is amazing how fast it happened. Right now one of my main projects is fully running on DeepSeek flash. My reason was that I was blocked by both of the main US AI labs from working on it because it involves viruses. DeepSeek flash has been killing it since I switched it on, completing the first phase of the project and setting up an iteration in another application space. It isn't the most brilliant model, but it is reliable and I don't have to manage my weekly token allowance. I just spend freely and end up spending only a few dollars a day. Intelligence is going to become a basic commodity. Only special stuff is going to drive us to use special models. And maybe not even that.
Agreed. With less than $10 on the DeepSeek API used, I’m somewhere near half a billion tokens over the past week or however long it’s been since it came out.
I’ve found it to be very capable. I’m using it with pi as well and some custom extensions I’ve put together over the past few months and it’s pretty crazy having it do what I need it to a vast majority of the time, do it fast, and see that it’s used like $0.12.
How is $5/day irrelevant? In the $150/mo range you can get effectively unlimited usage of GPT 5.6 Sol (Pro plan). Why use a much weaker model for the same price?
not at all true. if you're truly using it across the board for smaller things (translation of pages, filtering of every individual tweet based on its relevance to you etc), the costs ramp up super quickly.
i used for work where i did less and it quickly reaches thousands if you're not careful. i can already see what some will say: skill issue et cetera - whatever.
$100-200/mo is the subscription price. You aren’t going to go over. And you can select smaller models as well. Not everything has to be done by the most expensive one.
If you factor in cost then it may well be, but it's definitely the case that the high-end models can get you significantly better results than the cheaper models even for tasks that feel like they should be straightforward.
I really doubt that the either of the pro plans are subsidized heavily enough to support you swapping v4Flash for Terra, much less Sol.
$5/days is ~330 Mtok/day, that’s a nontrivial amount of work, and none of the gpts are more efficient than deepseek at $/task if deepseek meets your quality bar.
They do give a significant amount more than you would expect from the API pricing. The US provider API pricing has heavy margins by all accounts (and most are short enough of GPUs that there's little incentive to drop).
Others have said similar but I disagree, I'm spending $200/m and I can easily burn through my weekly quota with a few overnight goals using 5.6 medium.
5.6 medium is pretty good at implementing moderately complicated things as long as you've done a good job specking out the types and the API contracts and acceptance criteria.
I can pretty easily burn through my weekly quota over several agent coding hours with minimal supervision when tasked with some pretty large but well-planned refactors.
$5 a day is pretty extreme in DeepSeek. You really have to abuse it to get anywhere close to it. Maybe something in around hundreds of millions of tokens per day, considering cache hits and all.
And to be frank, it is not that much weaker for regular software development work. I use Claude at work and I see no difference in capability. I only notice a dramatic difference in how much more expensive it is.
Dax (from Opencode) has tweeted that they can replicate or beat the price with rented GPUs. Deepseeks secret sauce is the incredibly cheap caching (magnitude cheaper than other providers).
vLLM has recently released a similar approach. It's not as effective as what DeepSeek does but still an interesting development.
I have no doubt that in due time other providers will match or perhaps even beat the current DeepSeek prices.
As someone who recently tried it on some blackwell cards, it's possible to match the prices especially the input can be even cheaper and output can match the costs so you can easily build a net 20-30% margin business even at current GPU prices.
The entire issue is caching, I tried to write some custom to dump to disk kv-caching using some ideas from their papers and my experience with snapshots and vm checkpoint systems, I must say they must have really squeezed that lemon it's hard.
Atleast me with Sol couldn't figure it out over a couple days, a few hours each day, which isn't much but I did feel a bit stuck with existing solutions and felt like I might have to write something from scratch. But if you are willing to put in the effort into the infra I do think it's doable. But it will be really hard to pull it off.
My congrats to anyone who manages to pull it off, they might be able to kill off most AI labs. Assuming they can find the compute, Deepseek really has killed all models for me other than Sol/Fable/Opus/K3 tier stuff.
Mild info dump, since this has a few too many upvotes and some folks might be misunderstanding, 20-30% is assuming a typical agentic workload where input tokens dominate by over 20:1 or at least 10:1, if you are output token heavy then this is going to be a different ball game.
And there is no way in hell anyone can afford caching prices same as what DeepSeek is offering, and DeepSeek keeps the cache available for an insane amount of time most providers will flush it in 5-mins like Claude/Anthropic (some offer customizing it but I am not sure of the pricing, it's load based on some like Fireworks, which means assume a couple minutes at most, they say several minutes god knows what that really means).
There is no way to match DeepSeek's current prices, "profitably" if you are renting a GPU and reselling tokens, unless you have some really amazing caching infra or something.
Deepseek's prices are just insanely cheap, I am not saying it's impossible to get there the overall performance suggests it should be feasible, but I will be damned if any provider could match their tps and caching any time soon at those same prices profitably.
I believe even if Deepseek 2-3x their prices across the board even then they would be cheaper for most long running tasks, that's just how good their caching is.
For one I have managed to hit the cache after I over 24 hours on their system it's insane, the honestly didn't care because it was so cheap but it truly made me incredibly happy to think about the engineering that must have taken. TTFT is slightly worse, but it's good enough, for those cache prices I can take a few seconds worth of hit on TTFT.
One read is 1) they're getting a lot of traffic for Flash, 2) they've said they're updating Pro soon and expect that to lead to a traffic spike for Pro, but 3) that would leave them overloaded, so 4) they're going to raise prices to avoid it.
It's interesting that most open models adding 1M context did it in a way that reduces KV cache size (though DeepSeek was the most aggressive, using compressed attention on all layers), but only a couple providers turned it into a discount on cache reads.
> Deepseeks secret sauce is the incredibly cheap caching (magnitude cheaper than other providers).
Can anyone working at one of the main US labs (Google, OpenAI, Anthropic) comment on WTF they haven't even tried MLA - despite the obvious massive advantages?
I know enough to know they aren't completely incompetent. So there must be a quite good reason.
But it remains a mystery to me.
DeepSeek's MLA is like almost 2 years old at this time. They've got thousands of people working on this stuff. They clearly have the ability to at least try it...
There’s a measurable performance tradeoff versus gqa so there’s reluctance.
For the most part though the new deepseek v4 tech is hca and mhc and people are still catching on like with moe and rl. Wait for 6 12 months, minimum time for next pre train.
Eh, what are you guys even talking about? Deepseek is not cheapest provider as is, and it's MIT. So deepseek making it more expensive to use is just nonsense, they can only change their own pricing. It's the beauty of MIT license and open weights. If anything, these models are some of the safest in the world to use if you worry about a rug pull.
Yes, there is warning, but also there are many providers on OpenRouter[0], hosting open weight model with similar pricing. The question is Will they go up as well?
If you're on the DeepSeek Platform, you'd see this:
"We plan to raise the overall pricing for DeepSeek API services in the near future, with a significant increase expected. Please plan your usage accordingly. The specific pricing plan will be subject to official notice."
I've posted a few times about my project that's a collection of 30k-250k webapps that are served from a WebDAV server. The apps know how to write updated copies of themselves back to the server.
My family uses it. I have gallery apps (yearbooks for each year are a lot of fun!) of us on trips and just living, an outlining app that's a mesh of Workflowy and Org Mode (it's called Fluxtral), a markdown-backed app (it uses marked.min.js, and is called Dextral) that offers documents, logs, calendars, and kanban boards, all parsed from markdown. I have a List app for gear, trips, shopping, etc. that we all can contribute to. There are utilities (world clock, calendar) and games (an oracle for RPGs, a KenKen implementation), and apps (a diagram editor that exports to SVG, a web-launcher that uses pneumonics, a Scheme-based hacking environment, and a spreadsheet that does most of what you'd expect aside from Solver and Pivot tables).
I started these projects before AI, and made slow progress over the years, but the modern versions of all this stuff have been built with Deepseek V4 Flash. I've also used Gemini in the very early days, and Kimi K2.6 later on, but these days, since I can now host Deepseek v4 Flash 0731 in a 2-bit quant on my Strix Halo box (128GB, but only about 250GB/s of memory bandwidth, so 15t/s), I used Deepseek with omp for almost everything. It's a very capable model, and I'm amazed I can run it locally and get good results. It's really revolutionary for my (small) use cases.
Hear hear. IQ tokens to cheap to meter upon us. So many things changed since last week. Now I've had Prime agent session grinding into its 20-th hour still not giving up. Been using opencode-go since Go sub appeared. What made a difference was deepseek-v4-flash and mimo-v2.5 showing. Very similar middling models ~300b so light on the gpu. 1M context and hybrid archs - so one can actually make use of that 1M (don't grind to a halt like others). In OMP I have one the primary (default), the other one as /advisor looking over the shoulder and nagging. On opencode-go in credits counting they are the bottom-2 in cost, cheaper by 200-350 times than than the top-1. Last week with deepseek-v4-flash-0731 another jump - now it's closer to the top models then to the middle. Now I don't even need the /advisor probably. Still left it there it's sometime amusing the models back and forth. :-) DeepSeek offer /v1/responses api now with flash-0731, so setup Codex to use that too. I'm loving this :-)
It's very impressive and I'm running it locally on 2x DGX. Non thinking mode is very responsive. Thinking mode has some latency but can be switched on when needed. Both are really good
Does auto generating tests even do anything helpful? Don’t they just sort of tautologically say the code does what it does at best or do something completely ridiculous like test and implementation that only exists in the test file at worst?
> I'm thinking about having it automatically filter and re-rank my social media feeds so I can steer the algorithm instead of the other way around.
I hadn't really thought about this but AI may well be the technology that disrupts and ultimately destroys social media.
The value proposition of something like FB or IG is, as we know, the network effect. The platform gets to extract value from user generated content. I believe that users should own the platform, a bit like the Wikimedia Foundation, because they're the ones that create value. Federation is a popular belief on HN and I've come to believe that's simply the wrong solution to the right problem.
Anyway, how these social media companies make money is by optimizing the feed for engagement. People know it too so you see people trying to build an audience by rage baiting. And then more time spent equals more advertising revenue.
But what happens when the AI can simply slurp all the posts and then filter and rank them? It destroys the engagement and advertising model. And I'm not opposed to that, honestly. It may be on eof the few good thing sto come out of AI.
Depends on the prompt I think. If it's just "Generate tests plz" then I agree, but if its
"If this PR adds any new endpoints, ensure that there are functional and integration tests. If there are not, please investigate the feasibility and appropriateness, and create functional tests using the guide found on our wiki for guidance https://www.ourdevwiki.site/how-to-make-functional-tests" then maybe it could add some value.
But that very much depends on the specific system. Some tests are obvious, some not so much.
The analogy I like is that building software is running a Michelin restaurant. The moment you scale, the chef is just writing cooking books and is absent, and you move into franchising, you will be amazed at the bottom line revenue scaling, while customers will be progressively appalled with the food...
These posts have to be Chinese bots, these models are all trash. Used it via OpenCode for an hour, cost me one hour of my life. It is for anything complete trash.
I've gotten a lot of good work done with deepseek models. Like with any generic harness there's some tuning that has to happen. I used open code for a while, but I've landed on pi.dev as my go to since its easier to tune and has better deepseek integration. iirc open code is quite bad at utilizing cache and doesn't have a lot of ways to specifically tune the harness for a particular model.
(1) you used opencode
(2) what provider did you use. openrouter is trash because they shit up the model serving. no max effort and horrific cache utilization, on the order of 50-75%, absolutely garbage. beware
Note this is the 07/31 release of DSv4 flash and not the "preview" that they put out a couple months or so ago.
I've been running this model locally for a week, and the preview version before that. This updated one feels like a whole tier up. It's very capable for debugging and analyzing documents/data I upload.
The killer feature, IMO, is the speed. On 2x RTX Pro 6000 Blackwell, its ~8k tok/s prefill and ~250 tok/s on a single stream. I saw 1000 tok/s with ~64 concurrent streams on vLLM.
That's fast enough that you can interactively chat with it without switching tabs while you wait, and its a ~300B (13B active, hence the speed) model so the responses are also very good. It's actually more convenient now for me to direct 95%+ of my day to day usage to my local model, and only use Claude Fable for really big coding tasks.
Until this model was released, I was contemplating spending even more money on hardware to run GLM5.2 (~750B) at reasonable speeds, but I no longer feel that need. This is smart enough, and I think it only gets much better for local models from here.
What runtime are you using with the 2x RTX Pro 6000 Blackwell machine? I have the same setup and tried DSv4 Flash on vLLM and ran into a ton of kernel bugs that don't seem to have been fixed yet.
I'm getting like 25 tok/s on 2x RTX Pro 6000. This is with llama.cpp, but I had GPT tune it for me. I was under the impression vLLM was at most ~2x faster, and usually for highly parallel loads. Any tips on where I should look first for an obvious blunder?
It doesn't need extra quantization. The official weights are natively mixed precision FP4/FP8, so it fits in ~160GB. The API slowness is probably from being batched with other concurrent user requests. The provider's aggregate throughput gets higher but per-stream speed slows down.
You are right, relatively to other llm providers this is not slow. But if you think what is possible when you have 1000t/s a sec you might find it slow.
My Claude account was banned the other day. The only possible cause I can think of is that I tried to authenticate from the AI assistant in a JetBrains IDE and, not thinking, entered the details for my regular subscription rather than an API account. As soon as it became apparent that I needed an API account rather than a subscription, I just closed out of the tab. Nevertheless, about 20 minutes later I got an email saying my account was banned for a violation of the usage policy, and my appeal was rejected.
My initial thought was to sign up for ChatGPT, but I had $20 in OpenRouter so I've been trying out DeepSeek V4 Pro with Pi for the last few days and I gotta say, it's good enough for my use case. And even with paying for API usage rather than Claude's subsidised subscription, and with OpenRouter taking their cut, I will probably end up paying significantly less overall. And I really like the flexibility of being able to use whatever minimalist open source harness I want (and being able to switch providers easily, too).
(My demands probably aren't as high as many others' - I mostly use it for help with some hobbyist coding projects, and I tend to ask it questions about how to approach problems rather than just telling it to go off and code stuff for me.)
I've been asking about psyops and bioweapons and I'm still going strong. I did get a Sonnet session shut down the other day though which feels like some kind of achievement.
I'm the same way, I have a very low/sporadic usage of any subscription I've tried. I now just use openrouter with DS4 pro/flash. It also gets rid of usage anxiety where I would try to justify the $20/month by forcing myself to use the tokens for projects as the weekly limit deadline neared.
> My initial thought was to sign up for ChatGPT, but I had $20 in OpenRouter so I've been trying out DeepSeek V4 Pro with Pi for the last few days and I gotta say, it's good enough for my use case
If you prefer subscriptions, OpenCode Go ($10/mo), Cline Pass ($10/mo), Atlas Code ($20/mo), and CommandCode ($1/mo) serve some of the best open weights with generous limits. OpenCode Go currently offers $120 for $10 on DeepSeek Flash v4 (if you're okay with data retention).
> DeepSeek V4 Flash: ZDR agreement is renewed monthly. The current agreement is valid through August 31, 2026.
Is there other info I should be aware of w.r.t data retention with opencode go? It's hosted in China, so other middlemen may be active (I doubt it, but possible)?
Compared to the last Deepseek V4 Flash version I've had tons of issues with it getting in infinite loops and talking to itself without executing tool calls, wasting tons of tokens
This is on Pi agent, nothing fancy at all about my prompts or use case. Anyone else experiencing this?
I've also had it randomly go from talking about Rust to talking about the electric chair, controversies about D&D rules (both irrelevant and something I've never discussed) and it's completely blind to it in future prompts even when its pointed out and referenced directly
All this said its still worth it but the agentic performance has degraded in my experience at least
I've been using for work, from opencode $10/mo subscription plan, on high effort (which is better than max imo), and haven't had any issue.
When it was first available in opencode, it was kinda slow for me, I guess because everyone wanted to try the new shiny. But now it's back to being screamingly fast and Opus 4.8 level of smart, for penies.
Yes, but even the cheapest providers on OpenRouter are charging at least 10x what DeepSeek does for cached input tokens, which is where DeepSeek gets most of the cheapness.
This would be more convincing if those providers had converged on a number that was not the exact pricing of DeepSeek themselves. Clearly DeepSeek is setting the price here and without them holding it down I expect increases.
Kimi K3 was an interesting model only a month ago, and now we're looking at the same performance for 1/20th of the price. Wild how fast this is advancing.
Real question: is there anybody that is both maintaining alpha-dev capability by keeping abreast of all these daily changes, while also reserving enough time to actually work?
Seems like we've reached the event horizon of whether AI advances are worth paying attention to.
I enjoy using opencode go to play around with a lot of different models. I wind up using deepseek v4 flash for most everything, stepping up to minimax m3 if that doesn't cut it, finally preferring GLM for complex tasks or important planning I want to go right the first time
I recommend opencode or something akin to it to play with models. Any big model updates or hot new ones will naturally run across your desk that way
I think the play now is to just try out whatever the best new model is every time you see a headline that fundamentally reorganizes your conception of what's possible.
I don't think you need to be keeping abreast of them really, you just need to be using the best model you can get enough tokens from, which for many people is Fable 5 @ $200ish, ideally fanning out implementation to cheaper models
In my use, DeepSeek v4 Flash (which replaced the quite excellent MiniMax M3) lags behind GLM 5.2 & Muse Spark 1.2 (let alone Kimi K3). Also, K3 is a much bigger multi-modal model, while Flash is text-only and likely optimised for coding tasks.
Yep, and the v4 flash final is about 2.5x slower than preview making it no longer a fast model, in fact slower than Luna and bigger models in many cases.
Spark is actually the interesting one imo. It's significantly better, also significantly faster. If you are ok with letting Meta soak up your data (which DS does too) it's also the same price.
Not for long, Deepseek is saying they will have a significant price jump soon. They really shouldn’t do it because they are on the cusp of capturing the scalable API market.
They need to be able to serve their market. The price increase is partly load shedding. If they improve their ability to serve their load, they can always drop it again, as OpenAI did with Luna recently.
My read is, OpenAI is neither able to claw b2b money (away from Ant) nor are they able to stave off open weights on the other. In short, they're struggling to hold onto their distant #2 position in the coding market, and these pricing changes reflect a (desperate) change in strategy.
I strongly recommend trying this for programming tasks.
It is strong (not Fable strong though) with a much better “persona” than Opus, and very different blindspots. If you flip between Claude and this you will find both catch the mistakes of the other before they get out of control.
On balance I actually prefer DeepSeek for programming now, because of the way it talks.
This also reflects my experience and should put to bed the distillation rumours. This model feels nothing like the Claude models, including tone and blindspots.
The recently announced they're raising their prices 10x right?
Which would put them... exactly where everyone else is on this graph.
Edit: I seem to have misunderstood the news. I thought the magical cache read pricing was going away (0.002) and they were going to be on par with everyone else (0.02). But I have no idea.
> The recently announced they're raising their prices 10x right?
No.
They sent an email to customers saying that they will raise prices "significantly".
How much that will be is speculation.
My guess is that they will just remove the 75% discount they gave when they released V4 preview. It will still be relatively cheap even at 4x the current price.
It's not frontier, but it's far past what we had at the beginning of the year. It's very usable. I get great instruction compliance, tool calling, and with a trivial workflows flow it has very good long-running performance as well.
DeepSeek is my cheap and cheerful Chinese model of choice for API use. Has been for a while, but now it's Flash instead of Pro. Even cheaper, and now better then Pro. I feel like most of the major Chinese models are benchmaxxed, they have weird quirks every time I use them (Qwen 3.8 Max doesn't check its work and leaves stuff broken, doesn't write tests unless prompted, etc., Kimi ends up being quite expensive and rarely better than GPT Sol or Opus 5), while DeepSeek models seem to be generally as good as the benchmarks indicate: Not the best, but stronger across the board than any model within an order of magnitude of its price.
I'll grant it's very thorough when assigned a troubleshooting task. I'm not as confident of its code review though it is very good at security vulnerability auditing, and isn't hobbled for that work like Fable, and even Opus refuses some work in that area now.
Oke of the great advantages of v4 flash 0731 is that even in the largest size unsloth quantized gguf, Q8 K XL, it will fit well within the resources of a 256GB DRAM server. If you have no gpu at all and are okay with setting up a workflow that handles slow token per second rate, give it a task and check back in 4-6 hours, it works great. And remember to give it more lengthy tasks to run overnight. Whatever workflow you set up, the idea is to keep it busy 24x7 doing different things in parallel.
I’ve been refreshing hacker news constantly for a week now waiting for v4 pro, after they stated it would follow «soon». I have learnt «soon» is a matter of definition.
Tell your PjM who should tell your PgM who should tell your PdM, all the PMs...
Maybe if "the business" sees it is true of LLMs, they might believe it's true of giving better context to engineers up front then giving them time to think and prototype (thinking tokens are an answer prototype).
I'm still not sure, there's a promo going on now, but generally Go gives $60 of API credit and right now it might be $120 with deepseek. But $20/month OpenAI subscription I believe gives you many hundreds of API-equivalent usage? I've heard $100/month giving many thousands API-equivalent per month.
Finally something that is breaking away from the pack. Interesting that max costs less than high. I still think, currently, TPS is more important than near frontier intelligence. Likely for reasons that LeCun outlined, maybe out of a billion prompts you will get value from that intelligence. When we have very fast models abstraction will work as that filter.
I'm really excited for where the open weight models go from here. I've had fun with just CPU inference on old servers that only have AVX1; here's hoping for commoditized TPU-like hardware!
They did recently announce they're increasing prices though (got a mail yesterday I think), so not sure this analysis showing it as price outlier will last
I love DeepSeek V4 Flash since the pre-0731, now even more. It is the first model that is truly too cheap to meter.
But I find it having a pretty significant problem with tool calling - no idea why, but tool calling with it is SLOW. As long as the model is reasoning, all good. But give it a bunch of tools and it becomes extremely slow.
This latest DeepSeek is almost at the "too cheap to meter" level. That's going to be a larger unlock than models like Fable/Mythos that are way too expensive to justify, IMO.
If I had the GPU size, hook it up to llama.cpp and setup the --reasoning-budget and reasoning-message; Most of that additional reasoning is a lot of garbage and you can redirect it to useful output.
It's an excellent metric, the amount of applications not viable now due to cost/latency/throughput is vastly bigger than the amount of current use cases. Even current ones do benefit, e.g. it's a great executor subagent.
As an end consumer, I don't care about the number of active parameters. I really do care only about the tracked metric (how well does it do the job, and how much does it cost... ideally also with time included, but that wouldn't fit on a 2D chart)
Price is confounded by VC subsidies, economies of scale, and inference optimizations. I think a more interesting chart would be ARC AGI vs forwards pass flops or ARC AGI vs training tokens. Of course we don't have those numbers for the closed source models or even some of the open weight ones.
weak argument. deepseek v4 flash is open weight, you can easily find other providers with competitive price with Deepseek (except for input caching), some even half as cheap.
OpenCode Go even has double limits temporarily so for 10 USD you effectively get 140 USD of tokens to spend. It would impress me if someone could burn that amount with "normal" usage. Even when running multiple sessions.
I have a Claude Max subscription but I've barely touched it, it just feels like a step back to have to think about limits and usage even though the models are stronger.
The beauty of intelligence at this cost (even if it's not SOTA) is that it opens a whole bunch of new use cases. Test failure in CI? Have the bot automatically propose a fix, its cheap enough that you can discard it w/h issues. Test coverage too low? Auto generate tests on CI for every pull-requests! Monitoring server logs, continuous security audits and investigating every received exception now becomes possible.
I'm thinking about having it automatically filter and re-rank my social media feeds so I can steer the algorithm instead of the other way around.
Perhaps other people (with enormous budgets) were already doing all of the above but for us this is a really exciting release!
There's no way large companies outside the US will pay the "US AI lab" premium if they can get the same workloads done at a fraction of the cost using open-weight models that they can self-host and optimize/fine-tune on.
For simple queries, we have reached the threshold since the beginning of the year, and models are good enough from every provider to make a meaningful difference between one another. (ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, Grok, MuseSpark, Kimi, DeepSeek, GLM...)
The real unlock will be, and you can already see it with GPT-5.6 and Fable-5, to delegate complex enough tasks that will take more than 24 hours to get done and they will not lose track. I'm not talking about a loop, but the actual intelligence to recover from these compounding errors that accumulate in dumber models.
We're still a long way from the intelligence needed to let one of these agents go ahead and supervise multiple layers of sub-agents underneath to do complex orchestration. The future looks very promising and exciting. Imagine having the possibility of a Frontier model orchestrating as many sub-agents as needed that are running on cheaper models like DeepSeek.
Yes it's much easier to have a smarter model that goes straight to the correct answer first, but it may not be necessary or economical. There's a minimum bar for the model where it understands problems and knows the right step to correct them, and above that newer models give diminishing returns.
While SOTAs handle these errors better, they compound in all models and there's a term for that. It starts with cluster and ends with an expletive.
I wish I could, but I don't see the need for human steering going away soon if the task involves anything novel (see Terry Tao's chat).
I’ve found it to be very capable. I’m using it with pi as well and some custom extensions I’ve put together over the past few months and it’s pretty crazy having it do what I need it to a vast majority of the time, do it fast, and see that it’s used like $0.12.
With 5 active sessions going nonstop? That seems like a pretty important qualifier.
i used for work where i did less and it quickly reaches thousands if you're not careful. i can already see what some will say: skill issue et cetera - whatever.
$5/days is ~330 Mtok/day, that’s a nontrivial amount of work, and none of the gpts are more efficient than deepseek at $/task if deepseek meets your quality bar.
Then, once I go over, API pricing racks up FAST!
I can pretty easily burn through my weekly quota over several agent coding hours with minimal supervision when tasked with some pretty large but well-planned refactors.
> I'm running it in Oh My Pi with a second instance running as "advisor" and even with 5-6 active sessions (effectively 12 streams)
Not true. Sol on XHigh or Max runs out even on the $200/mo plan. It's not close to effectively unlimited. Maybe at 2x the current allowance it can.
And to be frank, it is not that much weaker for regular software development work. I use Claude at work and I see no difference in capability. I only notice a dramatic difference in how much more expensive it is.
vLLM has recently released a similar approach. It's not as effective as what DeepSeek does but still an interesting development.
I have no doubt that in due time other providers will match or perhaps even beat the current DeepSeek prices.
The entire issue is caching, I tried to write some custom to dump to disk kv-caching using some ideas from their papers and my experience with snapshots and vm checkpoint systems, I must say they must have really squeezed that lemon it's hard.
Atleast me with Sol couldn't figure it out over a couple days, a few hours each day, which isn't much but I did feel a bit stuck with existing solutions and felt like I might have to write something from scratch. But if you are willing to put in the effort into the infra I do think it's doable. But it will be really hard to pull it off.
My congrats to anyone who manages to pull it off, they might be able to kill off most AI labs. Assuming they can find the compute, Deepseek really has killed all models for me other than Sol/Fable/Opus/K3 tier stuff.
And there is no way in hell anyone can afford caching prices same as what DeepSeek is offering, and DeepSeek keeps the cache available for an insane amount of time most providers will flush it in 5-mins like Claude/Anthropic (some offer customizing it but I am not sure of the pricing, it's load based on some like Fireworks, which means assume a couple minutes at most, they say several minutes god knows what that really means).
There is no way to match DeepSeek's current prices, "profitably" if you are renting a GPU and reselling tokens, unless you have some really amazing caching infra or something.
Deepseek's prices are just insanely cheap, I am not saying it's impossible to get there the overall performance suggests it should be feasible, but I will be damned if any provider could match their tps and caching any time soon at those same prices profitably.
I believe even if Deepseek 2-3x their prices across the board even then they would be cheaper for most long running tasks, that's just how good their caching is.
For one I have managed to hit the cache after I over 24 hours on their system it's insane, the honestly didn't care because it was so cheap but it truly made me incredibly happy to think about the engineering that must have taken. TTFT is slightly worse, but it's good enough, for those cache prices I can take a few seconds worth of hit on TTFT.
It's interesting that most open models adding 1M context did it in a way that reduces KV cache size (though DeepSeek was the most aggressive, using compressed attention on all layers), but only a couple providers turned it into a discount on cache reads.
Can anyone working at one of the main US labs (Google, OpenAI, Anthropic) comment on WTF they haven't even tried MLA - despite the obvious massive advantages?
I know enough to know they aren't completely incompetent. So there must be a quite good reason.
But it remains a mystery to me.
DeepSeek's MLA is like almost 2 years old at this time. They've got thousands of people working on this stuff. They clearly have the ability to at least try it...
There’s a measurable performance tradeoff versus gqa so there’s reluctance.
For the most part though the new deepseek v4 tech is hca and mhc and people are still catching on like with moe and rl. Wait for 6 12 months, minimum time for next pre train.
The big US labs are opaque and don't publish much of any technical details anymore. We don't know what they are or aren't doing, honestly.
Cache:
Hit rate: 98.582% (1,265,646,976 / 1,283,855,064)Deepseek charges $0.0028 per cache read on Openrouter. The next cheapest is $0.018.
That's a massive difference and quickly adds up on coding sessions (which often hit 95%+ cached tokens).
They "can" is the caveat here. Rented GPUs are going up in pricing. I recently got an email that DigitalOcean pricing of GPUs were going up.
So
1. They have to get a hold of them (availability is bad)
2. They have to maintain the pricing
This adds disk as a tier in the HBM → CPU → Disk KV cache hierarchy.
There's also a cluster of related KV-offload FS PRs: #49225 (read/write batching, still open) and #49152 (batch store/load in C, merged Jul 28).
It's hard to say if these are similar to the approach DeepSeek takes but they definitely seem very interesting.
[0] https://openrouter.ai/deepseek/deepseek-v4-flash-0731#provid...
"We plan to raise the overall pricing for DeepSeek API services in the near future, with a significant increase expected. Please plan your usage accordingly. The specific pricing plan will be subject to official notice."
which in your case is?
My family uses it. I have gallery apps (yearbooks for each year are a lot of fun!) of us on trips and just living, an outlining app that's a mesh of Workflowy and Org Mode (it's called Fluxtral), a markdown-backed app (it uses marked.min.js, and is called Dextral) that offers documents, logs, calendars, and kanban boards, all parsed from markdown. I have a List app for gear, trips, shopping, etc. that we all can contribute to. There are utilities (world clock, calendar) and games (an oracle for RPGs, a KenKen implementation), and apps (a diagram editor that exports to SVG, a web-launcher that uses pneumonics, a Scheme-based hacking environment, and a spreadsheet that does most of what you'd expect aside from Solver and Pivot tables).
I started these projects before AI, and made slow progress over the years, but the modern versions of all this stuff have been built with Deepseek V4 Flash. I've also used Gemini in the very early days, and Kimi K2.6 later on, but these days, since I can now host Deepseek v4 Flash 0731 in a 2-bit quant on my Strix Halo box (128GB, but only about 250GB/s of memory bandwidth, so 15t/s), I used Deepseek with omp for almost everything. It's a very capable model, and I'm amazed I can run it locally and get good results. It's really revolutionary for my (small) use cases.
oh, they're mad.
And, probably 99.99% of people using LLM probably don't even need SOTA anyway.
I hadn't really thought about this but AI may well be the technology that disrupts and ultimately destroys social media.
The value proposition of something like FB or IG is, as we know, the network effect. The platform gets to extract value from user generated content. I believe that users should own the platform, a bit like the Wikimedia Foundation, because they're the ones that create value. Federation is a popular belief on HN and I've come to believe that's simply the wrong solution to the right problem.
Anyway, how these social media companies make money is by optimizing the feed for engagement. People know it too so you see people trying to build an audience by rage baiting. And then more time spent equals more advertising revenue.
But what happens when the AI can simply slurp all the posts and then filter and rank them? It destroys the engagement and advertising model. And I'm not opposed to that, honestly. It may be on eof the few good thing sto come out of AI.
this seems like such a bad idea
"If this PR adds any new endpoints, ensure that there are functional and integration tests. If there are not, please investigate the feasibility and appropriateness, and create functional tests using the guide found on our wiki for guidance https://www.ourdevwiki.site/how-to-make-functional-tests" then maybe it could add some value.
But that very much depends on the specific system. Some tests are obvious, some not so much.
The analogy I like is that building software is running a Michelin restaurant. The moment you scale, the chef is just writing cooking books and is absent, and you move into franchising, you will be amazed at the bottom line revenue scaling, while customers will be progressively appalled with the food...
Terrible use-case.
harness: omp.sh
I've been running this model locally for a week, and the preview version before that. This updated one feels like a whole tier up. It's very capable for debugging and analyzing documents/data I upload.
The killer feature, IMO, is the speed. On 2x RTX Pro 6000 Blackwell, its ~8k tok/s prefill and ~250 tok/s on a single stream. I saw 1000 tok/s with ~64 concurrent streams on vLLM.
That's fast enough that you can interactively chat with it without switching tabs while you wait, and its a ~300B (13B active, hence the speed) model so the responses are also very good. It's actually more convenient now for me to direct 95%+ of my day to day usage to my local model, and only use Claude Fable for really big coding tasks.
Until this model was released, I was contemplating spending even more money on hardware to run GLM5.2 (~750B) at reasonable speeds, but I no longer feel that need. This is smart enough, and I think it only gets much better for local models from here.
I wouldn't call 80 t/s slow.
My initial thought was to sign up for ChatGPT, but I had $20 in OpenRouter so I've been trying out DeepSeek V4 Pro with Pi for the last few days and I gotta say, it's good enough for my use case. And even with paying for API usage rather than Claude's subsidised subscription, and with OpenRouter taking their cut, I will probably end up paying significantly less overall. And I really like the flexibility of being able to use whatever minimalist open source harness I want (and being able to switch providers easily, too).
(My demands probably aren't as high as many others' - I mostly use it for help with some hobbyist coding projects, and I tend to ask it questions about how to approach problems rather than just telling it to go off and code stuff for me.)
If you prefer subscriptions, OpenCode Go ($10/mo), Cline Pass ($10/mo), Atlas Code ($20/mo), and CommandCode ($1/mo) serve some of the best open weights with generous limits. OpenCode Go currently offers $120 for $10 on DeepSeek Flash v4 (if you're okay with data retention).
> DeepSeek V4 Flash: ZDR agreement is renewed monthly. The current agreement is valid through August 31, 2026.
Is there other info I should be aware of w.r.t data retention with opencode go? It's hosted in China, so other middlemen may be active (I doubt it, but possible)?
This is on Pi agent, nothing fancy at all about my prompts or use case. Anyone else experiencing this?
I've also had it randomly go from talking about Rust to talking about the electric chair, controversies about D&D rules (both irrelevant and something I've never discussed) and it's completely blind to it in future prompts even when its pointed out and referenced directly
All this said its still worth it but the agentic performance has degraded in my experience at least
When it was first available in opencode, it was kinda slow for me, I guess because everyone wanted to try the new shiny. But now it's back to being screamingly fast and Opus 4.8 level of smart, for penies.
If I'm reading the chart correctly, a couple observations:
* deepseek-v4-flash-0731 max is better than kimi-k3 max
* glm-5.2 is dumber than a box of rocks (this must be on low reasoning or something, right?)
This is way more extreme than other results I'm seeing, like those from Artificial Analysis.
Seems like we've reached the event horizon of whether AI advances are worth paying attention to.
I recommend opencode or something akin to it to play with models. Any big model updates or hot new ones will naturally run across your desk that way
A chinese model being in the same ballpark of capability at half the price sounds believable to me.
Spark is actually the interesting one imo. It's significantly better, also significantly faster. If you are ok with letting Meta soak up your data (which DS does too) it's also the same price.
it's still $3/$15 for all providers on openrouter
because of some Kimi license
https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3#providers
Uptime looks crap, though.
So we won't see any price decrease unless Kimi changes the license of K3
My read is, OpenAI is neither able to claw b2b money (away from Ant) nor are they able to stave off open weights on the other. In short, they're struggling to hold onto their distant #2 position in the coding market, and these pricing changes reflect a (desperate) change in strategy.
the private endpoint costs 10x (azure).
private endpoints for deepseek (lots of providers) also cost about 10x more.
but 10x more for deepseek is $0.028 cached input, and 10x more for luna is $0.10.
It is strong (not Fable strong though) with a much better “persona” than Opus, and very different blindspots. If you flip between Claude and this you will find both catch the mistakes of the other before they get out of control.
On balance I actually prefer DeepSeek for programming now, because of the way it talks.
Which would put them... exactly where everyone else is on this graph.
Edit: I seem to have misunderstood the news. I thought the magical cache read pricing was going away (0.002) and they were going to be on par with everyone else (0.02). But I have no idea.
No.
They sent an email to customers saying that they will raise prices "significantly".
How much that will be is speculation.
My guess is that they will just remove the 75% discount they gave when they released V4 preview. It will still be relatively cheap even at 4x the current price.
From here on, it's going to become all about harnesses that best situate and organize swarm intelligence at scale.
Does no thinking emissions for context saving.
[0] https://taylor.town/silver-landmines
When I see dramatic leaps like this, it tells me that the important hacks haven't yet been discovered.
ARC-AGI II:
- GPT-5.2 (medium) %26.7 ($0.759)
- DSV4-Flash (max) %61.4 ($0.04)
https://reddit.com/r/DeepSeek is where the fellow F5ers are at.
Tell your PjM who should tell your PgM who should tell your PdM, all the PMs...
Maybe if "the business" sees it is true of LLMs, they might believe it's true of giving better context to engineers up front then giving them time to think and prototype (thinking tokens are an answer prototype).
promising!
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49198661
https://x.com/thdxr/status/2085377844515922210
But I find it having a pretty significant problem with tool calling - no idea why, but tool calling with it is SLOW. As long as the model is reasoning, all good. But give it a bunch of tools and it becomes extremely slow.
Am I the only one experiencing this?
What secret sauce do they have?
pair it with codewhale, 50 agents, 200 MB of ram.
That's irrelevant when you use $/task as the metric, which the OP does use.
That's how I handle the Qwen27B and 35B
What do you mean by "redirect it to useful output"? Could you give an example? This sounds interesting.
Imagine if they had GPU resources of western labs.
SV companies get way too comfortable when they have enough in the bank to stay running more than three months.
Energy and intelligence are good too, sure.
As an end consumer, I don't care about the number of active parameters. I really do care only about the tracked metric (how well does it do the job, and how much does it cost... ideally also with time included, but that wouldn't fit on a 2D chart)
With the exception of cache costs, all providers have similar input/output costs.